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Subject:Marvelously Cruel Intentions
Time:12:55 pm
Current Mood:contentcontent
Does anyone here think that Marvel will let Bobby/JP become canon eventually? Or do you think that they'll carry on refusing it because they don't want all the negative feedback that might ensue?

I'm still in two minds about it really, because I know some of the writers keep dropping hints and if I recall one has spoken out on the subject wanting them to get together, but yet theres the issue about the powers that be within Marvel and how they think this might be seen and the feedback they'll get. So I'm interested to hear what people think might happen: will they? won't they? or are the writers going to tease us with it eternally because they can't get them together?
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karaden
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-17 12:37 pm (UTC)
I really hope they do; but the cynic in me says it's unlikely. Bobby's one of the original X-Men, so he's got quite a deeply embedded fanbase - I imagine that (sadly) there would be a hell of an outcry if they ever made him gay or bi. I mean, look how long it took for Cyclops to anything but be a perfect devoted husband/boyfriend to Jean! (It's kinda sad really, how affairs are more acceptable to some parts of society than gay relationships, huh?)

To be honest, if JP ever gets any action, I'm kinda expecting it to either be a completely new character, or a little-used one from the sidelines somewhere; that way, if Marvel decide it was a bad move saleswise, they can sweep them nicely under the rug until everyone forgets about it. Kinda hard to do that with Iceman.

But then, I'm a cynic ;). I really do hope Marvel stops cowering behind the ratings and takes a chance on them. Out of curiousity, any idea which writer spoke out for them? It's a step in the right direction! *waves little JP/Bobby flag*
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(Anonymous)
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-17 04:26 pm (UTC)
Hi,

I'm new to these livejournal fansite things. I recently have become a big Northstar fan. A friend of mine is a huge JP/Bobby shipper and told me to check this site out.

I remember Chuck Austen, who started the JP crush thing was going to have an arc that dealt with this. His PR people (he had fans that kept in close contact with him that answered his questions when he couldn't) talked about it.

The two were suppose to be forced to kiss for whatever reason and one of CAs' people said it was not suppose to have anything to do with romance. That the whole reason JP had the crush was because Austen knew about how fans online talked about whether Bobby was bi or not (an idea that came from him dating a gender changing girl named Cloud.) According to Austens' fan the writer was just 'yanking peoples' chains.'

Even so Marvel said no to the arc though it might have a little to do with the kiss it also had other material that was deemed to mature for an all age comic. (The only other thing I remember being mentioned was that a TV show was going to air a tape of Warren and Paige having sex in the air.) I'm not sure if Millar was hinting or not in Wolverine but it looks like other writers have plans for Bobby right now. I'm not sure if it will be canon but I am enjoying the fandom.
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comixologist
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-17 07:15 pm (UTC)
The other thing to think about is that JP totally hit on Piotr in Ultimate, and Piotr is pretty much out, too. I feel like because Bobby is one of the original characters they would be more likely to make him bi than gay in any storyline, AU or not, but I also think that it's kind of cheap of them.

Characters evolve over time just like people. I think Marvel needs to be educated on Kinsey's sliding scale of sexuality.

The other thing that you have to think about with Marvel is that (and this is wierd) people die and come back to life all the time. I'm sure that they would/could come up with some appropriately bullshit reason if it came down to it.

My feeling is that in general Marvel doesn't seem to want to do anything more than hint (even for out characters like JP) at the possibilities of relationships. I think they just aren't aware of the pro-GLBT-character fanbase they have to work with.

;_; I just hope that it changes and that Bobby an' JP aren't forever separated by beaurocratic PR.
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karaden
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-17 08:09 pm (UTC)
If Marvel were to take the plunge, making Bobby bi would make more sense to me than outright gay, to be honest - he certainly has plenty of ex-girlfriends, so I would imagine they'd go with bi, even if it's just transitory. It'd seem a bit odd to write off all those women just like that.

The other thing that you have to think about with Marvel is that (and this is wierd) people die and come back to life all the time. I'm sure that they would/could come up with some appropriately bullshit reason if it came down to it.

"Quick, Gay!Bobby isn't working - let's kill him and push the Big Red Post-Mortem Reset Button, so we can make him straight again!" I laugh now, but if they ever did that, I'd seriously want to bash some heads in with a rock.

I think Marvel are becoming more aware of the pro-GLBT fanbase - I mean, they've laid down some pretty serious hints with some of the other characters too (Shatterstar and Rictor spring to mind, for one). Nothing they can't gloss over or ignore, true, but the groundwork is certainly there if they decide to go with it. Sadly, they do still have to consider the anti fanbase as well, which is probably why they're dragging their heels over it. Such a shame - to me, the whole raison d'etre of X-Men is about accepting diversity and not discriminating against or avoiding minority cultures. I'd love to see them explore the whole gay mutant subculture - I think there's so much untapped potential there. JP/Bobby would be an excellent way to do that - JP being quite well established and comfortable with it, Bobby being uncertain and new to it all...

Ah, well. There's always fanfiction to tide us over in the meantime, eh? (Apologies for the mega-long reply, btw!)
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placebo_dream
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-17 09:20 pm (UTC)
I like your line of reasoning.

I'd love to be optimistic about this and say that we'd have an openly gay couple but like "talktooloose" said even DC comics "caved to corporate fears about the buying habits of a few homophobic boys" and with Marvel having such a huge fanbase theres a lot of potentially homophobic people they'd have to think about.

Has anyone actually petitioned or written to Marvel about perhaps JP getting a bf if he's continued in the main comicverse? or if Bobby and JP should get together? If the issue is infront of their faces then they'd have their hand forced to cater for such a large audience wouldn't they? I agree with "Koala Motchi" when she says "I think Marvel needs to be educated on Kinsey's sliding scale of sexuality" it would help to actually show them that there is a wide spread fan base.

Sorry if I'm ranting, but I think that if Marvel went with the story line it would help to combat some peoples ideas about homosexuality and help to ease some homophobia as it would confront these issues what do tie in with what you said the whole raison d'etre of X-Men is about accepting diversity and not discriminating against or avoiding minority cultures. Plus it will make a lot of fan girls and boys extremely happy :P

If anyones interested in maybe thinking of a way to send Marvel their views on JP and relationships then reply and we can all discuss possibilities to go about it.
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dreality
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-18 02:08 am (UTC)
JP/Bobby would be an excellent way to do that - JP being quite well established and comfortable with it, Bobby being uncertain and new to it all...

I completely agree with the whole "But...but the X-Men are SUPPOSED to accept diversity!" line, and especially the part I quoted here -- I mean, how great would it be for one of the original X-Men to be perfectly comfortable around all kinds of mutants, and yet still be scared senseless and frustrated and probably confused at the idea that he might not be quite as straight as he thought?

"What do you mean, 'do I like guys'? What, like it's not enough I've got screwed up DNA, but it's rainbow colored, too?" And then Hank smacks him in the head and boots him out the door to go ask JP out. Ha.
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randomgirl666
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-18 10:41 am (UTC)
"I feel like because Bobby is one of the original characters they would be more likely to make him bi than gay in any storyline, AU or not, but I also think that it's kind of cheap of them."

That surprises me, because if anything, there's less tolerance towards bisexuality than towards homosexuality at the moment. People tend to assume bisexuals are either gays in denial or heteros trying to be trendy. I haven't even told my parents I'm bi because I know from discussions with them that they "don't believe in bisexuals." Even liberal, non-crazy people have a hard time accepting it sometimes. Possibly because homosexuality may suggest biological explanations, whereas bisexuals are often just labelled sluts.
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comixologist
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-18 02:53 pm (UTC)
While bisexuals are often labelled as sluts or just plain indecisive, though I've only ever seen real bi-prejudice within the GLBT community (kind of scary) but that's a discussion for another board. As a bisexual myself, I understand that prejudice is very real, but if you consider it, if Marvel chose to take the plunge and allow the tension between Jean-Paul and Bobby to come to a head, I feel that it's precisely because sometimes bisexuals are labeled as "just trying to be trendy" that they'd feel it was safe for Bobby to expand his horizons, so to speak.

As much as I dislike the motivation behind that kind of decision, it would be the safest way for Marvel to test the waters because they could either expand on Bobby's sexuality from there or take it back as a one-time, experimental kind of thing.

(Considering Bobby's history, though, they would have a hard time justifying making him gay without some serious character evolution)
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randomgirl666
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-19 08:37 am (UTC)
I don't really see any reason why Bobby couldn't be gay. None of his girlfriends has really been the love of his life. Who is there to indicate that Bobby isn't gay? Opal? Doesn't Bobby wanting to stay with the woman who left him for her cousin and the kid who wasn't his just provide a perfect example of him trying too hard to be "normal"? And sexuality isn't static anyway.
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comixologist
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-19 06:04 pm (UTC)
Very true, but I'm thinking about what the folks at Marvel are likely to decide. I'm sure cases could be made on all sides of the argumet (I totally agree that Bobby is trying really hard to be 'normal'). I'm also pretty sure that because Marvel can ensure all of us buying and reading to find out they'll delay their decisions as long as possible.
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vish
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-23 12:03 am (UTC)
I agree completely, I don't think that making Bobby bi would be a cop-out or a compromise.

I have many gay friends and they all seem to share the opinion that bisexuals are in denial or just like to take it wherever they can get it. It's not a viewpoint I understand, but it seems to be very prevalent. >_
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abydos6
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-17 04:56 pm (UTC)
i'm an eternal optimist...

i'll vote for yes...

but...

I think they will make us sweat it out. I mean, with the latest revelatons about jp and hydra et al., and bobby being told that jp constantly talked about him...me thinks that shoe might drop in a while. what they do with it after that is up for grabs.

I'm hoping that the writers are mature enough to handle this in such a way that everyone can get some satsifaction out of it (and by everyone i do mean the fans of jp/bobby and bobby and jp without the slash lol)

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talktooloose
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-17 08:06 pm (UTC)
And of course, there is always the danger that even if one writer moves in that direction, he will be yanked before the plotline plays out. I've been following some intense debate about the original intentions between Rictor and Shatterstar in X-Force and whether or not the writer had intended them to become an open couple before he was pulled from the book.

God, I was following the Terry Berg storyline over on DC's Green Lantern, but Judd Winick did not last on the book and Terry got buried. He wasn't even the superhero -- not even the sidekick -- and they still caved to corporate fears about the buying habits of a few homophobic boys. Still, watching Green Lantern go ballistic over Terry's gay-bashing was very satisfying. His disgust was so deep and his disappointment in humanity so profound that he took time off as Earth's guardian to wander the stars and ponder justice.

Step up, Marvel, step up!
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randomgirl666
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-18 10:35 am (UTC)
It all depends on about a zillion different things. There are some x-writers, I think, who would like it to happen. Austen maybe and Millar probably. But Austen's gone and who knows where Millar will be a year from now.

With this being Marvel, the editors are in charge. Back when Northstar was created, Marvel's Editor in Chief was Jim Shooter, who straight out forbid any gay characters at all in Marvel Comics. Currently, the people in charge are more tolerant, but y'know, if Marvel's stock takes a nosedive or they start losing as much money as they were a few years ago, that could all change.

These things were a lot easier to predict when you had the same writer and editor for seven years at a time.
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talktooloose
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-18 02:02 pm (UTC)
Millar, arggghhhh. His handling of Midnighter/Apollo drove me fucking insane. Before Millar, they were an openly gay but kind of private couple. Apollo especially had an alien otherworldliness about him. Suddenly because he's gay, he was quipping mid-battle about ogling lifeguards and they were running around like a sitcom gay couple. Millar needs to be told that sexual orientation is not synonymous with a single, mediated way of behaving. Especially for beings with such a sense of their own importance as the Authority.

Similar complaints for his Ultimate X-Men "characterizations", btw.
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rhea_carlysse
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-18 06:39 pm (UTC)
Well, I didn´t really dislike Millar in The Authority. I think that, if Marvel let him, he could do a good job with JP and Bobby, but that´s just my opinion.
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randomgirl666
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-19 08:40 am (UTC)
I had issues with Millar's run on the Authority (the gay adoption thing being one of them), but overall it's pretty much the best example the genre has of doing gay characters properly. Possibly because there aren't too many examples to begin with, but still... overall I felt Millar got more right than he did wrong.

In an industry where gay kisses get cut from books for no reason, having a gay couple in your book is a big achievement in itself.
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randomgirl666
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-19 08:48 am (UTC)
Oh and also... I thought the scene where Midnighter stands over Apollo's rapist with the phallicy-power tool weapon in his hand was one of the best gay character moments in any genre of any medium. Ever.
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ungratefulwench
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-22 12:32 pm (UTC)
Ack! I had a post all typed out and then LJ ate it...

The general gist of what I was saying is this - I don't think JP/Bobby will ever become canon, but I'd like to think that Marvel would become open-minded enough to consider it. I don't really understand why they have this openly gay character that they do nothing with. Every now and then they just mention, 'oh yeah, JPs gay. Aren't we the coolest publisher ever?' which isn't really good enough. It's a bit insulting really, I should think.

Anyway, if they're worried about the buying habits of a few homophobic boys, like some of you mentioned, surely the obvious solution is another JP mini-series? I mean, everyone knows he's gay, so people who don't like that wouldn't really be likely to buy the comic. A mini would give Marvel a chance to deal with JP in a grown-up fashion and acknowledge that there's more to being gay than having unrequited crushes on your teammates. If it went well, they could start introducing more elements into the mainstream comics. Of course, Marvel will never do this, because they're stupid >.
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vish
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-04-23 12:07 am (UTC)
Every now and then they just mention, 'oh yeah, JPs gay. Aren't we the coolest publisher ever?

E-freaking-xactly. Marvel seems to have this self-congratulatory attitude about having an openly gay character and dropping hints every once in a while, but the truth is that those limits were pushed long ago and that it just doesn't cut it anymore. It's almost like saying that being homosexual is okay, but displaying homosexual behavior like having a boyfriend that your friends see, is inappropriate.
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hatheny
Subject:THANK YOU
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-06-30 02:51 pm (UTC)
Okay . . . I am totally freaking sending this page to Marvel, just to say FUCK YOU, BOO! Wake up!

Everybody here rocks, I love you all may I please have your babies?? Please?! You people have shown me that there is sane, good HOPE in the world!! Thank you!

Xx Hatheny @-;-
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Marvelously Cruel Intentions - -thoughtful laughter-
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